Michael:  Hey, thank you for having me. 

 

Tim: All right. So I know before we started recording you said you were on the floor. Where do you trade and what do you trade? 

 

Michael:  You know, I've been on the floor for about over 10 years. I've traded the Dow futures pit since I'd say the beginning. In about '02, I started to trade the Dow futures, but now I'm sitting outside of a desk, outside the S&P. The old conversion from floor trader to electronic is kind of what I've done now. The paper and the custom orders have kind of dried in the pit and a lot of floor traders are going to electronic. That's the kind of transition I've made. So right now, I'm outside the S&P pit, probably the west side of the S&P pit. 

 

Tim: All right. Now a lot of traders I know have a tough time once they leave the floor and go try to trade elsewhere in a different way. Was it a tough transition for you? 

 

Michael: No, actually I started electronic. In '02, I got brought on to trade Dow minis and when the Dow mini product just launched I was brought in it with a prop group to start trading the Dow minis. So I started with the Dow minis, did that for about eight months. I realized that there's kind of an arbitration between the Dow minis and the Dow futures and I made that move from going upstairs of the CBOT down to the trading floor taking a tablet and basically laying off any trade that I had in the S -- or I keep saying the S&P, I'm outside the S&P. But laying off any Dow trades that I had into the Dow minis and taking advantage of that quick little move. 

 

Tim: All right. So talk about your kind of overall approach. Is there you way you describe to people how you trade whether it be fundamental, technicals or, you know, supply and demand that sort of thing? How would you kind of describe your overall philosophy? 

 

Michael: I'm an intuitive trader. I trade off feel, there's an order flow that comes into the market. So what I would do I would say probably 40% to 50% of my methodology is technical, but then other than I'm looking, I'm putting to levels together. A lot of the traders down here do this is they take -- there's not really too much charts and all that kind of stuff that goes on. You get charts from a BlueBird terminal down here on the floor. You take that printout, you walk in the trading pit with your print out. You have usually all 30-minute charts, you have your levels, let's just say the Dow level of 1250 or 12500 around there and you basically trade off the level. So when the market comes up to the levels, you're now looking and seeing okay, what kind of order flow is coming in here, is it getting firm, is it firming up, or are we getting weaker and as a trader your job is to determine that on your levels. So I would have my levels and I'd kind of adjust those in the morning premarket and then as the market started during the day I'd be in the pit and as it came to my levels then I would turn and from a "technical side," I "turn into the trader." What I would call kind of get it -- that's when you're in the trenches and you're feeling the market out and seeing if we are getting weaker at this level or if we're kind of strengthening up and growing legs and, you know, get an edge of that -- head higher on that move. So, you know, these are things that you consistently do. And as a floor trader, you've got order flow that comes in there so you've got customer orders whether it's Goldman, JP or Merrill or RBS or anything like that comes in there and they're buying large, you know, big size and as a local in the pit and a local's individual trades are all money in the pit, it's your job to then kind of get a feel on where that market is going. 

 

Tim: All right. So is it just a matter of Goldman's coming in with a lot of size at this price level therefore I want to get involved in this market at that level as well? I mean is it -- I know it's not that simple, but is that kind of the thing, the basis of what you're looking for? 

 

Michael:  Well, yes and no. There's two things. You know, when Goldman, say a big player comes in and they're buying up the market let's just say, a lot of times they're a different timeframe trader than you or I or an individual and they also have a lot more loss -- their loss limit, I guess the amount heat that they would take on a trade is different than you. So you can't, you know, basically say all right, Goldman just came in and bought 400 or Goldman's coming in and buying another 400, you know, or they're taking a bid. You can't just always trail them. [0:05:29] As a floor trader, you learn to lean on that. So you see them coming in, they're starting to buy it, you're either, you know, at that point in time where the market is trading, you know, you have your feel and then you're either going to take the quick little trades off of it. Or if you think Goldman has the trade right and you're a short-term type trader -- you know, a lot of floor guys down here don't really hold positions more than I don't know 5, 10, 15 minutes. Some guys will hold it all day, but they'll trade around their position so to speak. So you've got a long position, but all day you're getting short or getting long or getting short, but ultimately you're always long. So stuff like that has happened. But when the order comes in there, it's another variable that you take into the market and play it in a little bit different way. If there was no JP, no Goldman or any big size that comes in there, now you're getting the feel of what the locals are doing in the pit. Are they all getting long, are they all getting short? If they're all getting long around the bottom and we're still looking weaker then you know all those guys are going to start puking, what we call puking, getting out of their positions and setting the market even lower. So that's kind of something you're consistently evaluating everybody across the pit, right by you, the broker that stands to the left of you that's doing the order for Goldman and getting a feel of the order flow that's going in the markets. 

 

Tim: And how long do your typical trades last? 

 

Michael: You know, like I said, you could be trading around a position during the day or you could be just scalping things. So, you know, it all depends. I try not to have a bias when I come into the market. At times, where I do have a bias and say all right today, you know, we're going to push higher and all that kind of stuff is where I get into trouble. But if I stay objective and trade the market, trade the feel, I do really well. So it all could depend on understanding what the market state is. You know, we range bound or we get a trend today or how that is, try to recognize that before and that kind of change is the way how I trade. So I wouldn't say short term, long term. I'm just a trader so I'm going to take advantage of the order flow that comes in there and as long as I'm aware of market states, I can anticipate and respond to the opportunity. So there'd be times where I'll hold a trade for seconds, there'll be times where I'll hold it for hours. I typically don't hold trades all day long. You know, the markets, it changes its feel from the first hour of the day to the lunch hour to the last hour and I like to get, to take advantage of those exaggerated moves and all that kind of stuff. So I'd say on average, five minutes. 

 

Tim: Okay. And is there a way to kind of duplicate the feel that you get from the floor being near the floor anyway even though you're trading electronically? For traders that are trading at home, is it a matter of just watching order flow or does the floor trader and the guys around it still have a big advantage because they can get that gut feel for where the market is? 

 

Michael: That's a good question. You know what, I get a lot of the feel now. I mean I'm on the floor and I guess the whole reason why you could say to be on the floor, the edge isn't quite there as well as people think as far as floor traders anymore. What you do get down here without trading in the pit anymore is a feel. You get it -- because right now I'm standing down in the desk and I'm surrounded by wall boards empty trading pits because market is close and, you know, you can get that feel while you're sitting here trading. I'm listening to the squat box and at the same time I have one ear open listening to the trading floor because the Euro/Dollars over there and the 30 years and the 10 years, S&P, and the NASDAQ all right in front of me. So you really feel like you're in this matrix so that's why I kind of trade from the floor. But my true feel now is getting it from the ladder. You know, a lot of people call it the dome. But we get it from -- a lot of the traders down here go from watching the ladder and you see how it's trading where it's bids are firming up, the offers are coming in there the last trade, you know, you're getting that order flow in the depth of the market. So that's kind of where I would guess I would get the feel now besides being down here on the floor and hearing other markets selling off and the pits getting louder, what's going on over there, okay, 30 years are selling off now, you know, so stuff like that. Your charts don't make noises as far as when things kind of pick up. I mean I guess you could set the bells and whistles to it, but that's kind of where I get my feel. [0:10:00] 

Tim: Okay. And are you just trading one market these days and getting a feel for the behavior and kind of understanding where that goes? 

 

Michael: I've always traded one market. I think you should have one focus as a trader. It's like -- I always give the analogy you know having different girlfriends is great, but if you want to be good at one thing, you marry one girl. So it's one of these that I focus on one market. I trade it very well and I also use the analogy I keep it simple and stupid and that's just keeping everything as simple as it comes. Trading and anticipating market direction is very hard to do. You have to have a lot of focus so that's something that I limit all the indicators out there. I limit all the things you could put on your charts and I keep it as simple as it comes. I basically focus on, you know, one market. I keep the indicators almost like one indicator and I keep things very, very simple. 

 

Tim: All right. And you mentioned you started out with Dow futures, is that still what you're trading today? 

 

Michael: So no. Now, I'm doing crude. So I moved off the Dow pit. So I basically have been in the Dow pit for about ten years down here on the floor. Just in the last year, I came out of the Dow pit so there's really no reason for me to trade the Dow in the pit. I liked how the crude oil moves and I'm in front of the S&P so I do watch that. But typically, I don't trade it unless we have big customer orders that come in on times where JP, Goldman, and these guys are really playing that's the time where I will shut off the crude and I will strictly just watch the S&Ps that day. So I'm basically strictly crude and S&P. 

Tim: All right. And when you're trading crude, I know crude is something that does tend to move a lot on news, but some guys would say it doesn't matter what the news is, it's all in my depth of market. 

 

Michael: Yeah. 

 

Tim: Is that how you feel? 

 

Michael: You know, yeah. Crude is a loud one. It's definitely something that you could get on a position and it'll try everything it can to fuck you off. So you have to add here your stops in crude. You cannot get a bias. It's going to go wherever it wants to go just like any market will. But crude and crude is a wild one. I do like how it moves but as far as the news and everything, I'm not watching news when it comes to the crude. I typically am getting that order flow and that feel and that I have my levels when the market comes down or ups that level. I don't call them support, I don't call them resistance I just call them levels and when they come up to these levels, now I become a trader. I go into what I call the trenches. I'm looking at the dome, I call it the ladder and I look at this as you're on the frontlines of a battle, who's winning. There came up the level, is it getting stronger at this level, is it getting weaker at this level, you know, then you're going to get it to kind of shake both ways and get all weak sister so to speak out before it makes its real move. And that's where, you know, my job as a trader is to understand how to place my stops and manage my risk at these levels and to take advantage of the opportunity that I see and jump on it. 

 

Tim: Well, talk about that. How do you set stops? Are they hard stops or just in your mind or how do you that? 

 

Michael: They're hard stops. I have -- we basically when I go to -- say I buy, you know, the crude oil, I buy 80s, I usually keep about, you know, I'd say depending… My stops is what doesn't change. You know, market volatility will pick up, but that's where I really don't move my stops too much. I then sit my hands more and I'm patient and wait for the market to come to me and work on a better market entry. So as far as stops, I keep my stops I'd say 15 to 25 cents away and that's kind of where my stops are at. So right when I'm getting in, I'd say I get long, automatically the stop is already in there, it's already in play. So that's when I just sit. I'm not worried about changing my order so you're putting a stop in there or anything. I got long, I'm now watching the market. Still looking at it or do I still feel like it's going to play to long side, you know, you want to stay on the objective standpoint and not get married to your position. And, you know, I'm going to watch it and if it starts to weaken it up, I'm not going to wait for it to hit my stop, I'm going to get out and then pull back and reevaluate and be patient. A lot of it is, for me it's like a football game where, you know, a lot goes on and then you get the snap of the ball and I get in to play or I get into position. If I don't like it, I get out. It's a quick, you know, then I reevaluate. I'm not right away running another play or doing anything like that. I do reevaluate the situation and pull back and see. So that's kind of my approach. 

 

Tim: You mentioned kind of trying to work to get that best entry order, talk about how you do that. Do you just go in and put in at an offer the price you're willing to go or a limit order. How do you actually work to get that best price? 

 

Michael: Well, you know, I have my levels so when it comes to these levels, now I'm looking all right, it was coming up the price of 80s, you know, there's other people that are looking at the exact same levels and everybody there's no secret out there or special way or new indicator or anything like that, it's you. So it's coming up to 80s, how do you enter at that point? Well, I see how it trades. Sometimes, you know, it's going to come up right up to the 80s and pull back and if that's the short I was looking for. And situations where you have to -- for me, I have to watch and see how people kind of play it and how much is real, how much is fake. And, you know, you get these orders that flash in there and their size and then next thing you know they go away. [0:15:38] You know, for crude it's usually always, I don't know, 10 or 20 up, which is 20 on the bid 20 on the offer. Every once in a while, you might see a guy jump in there 150 or 200 and you want to see if it's real or not. So, you know, for me when it comes up to these levels, it shakes around these levels that I'm looking to anticipate the move and respond as where kind of intuition of enough years of sitting there watching the ladder and the bids and the offers and how it moves at certain levels, you kind of get a feel for the market. It's kind of hard to explain exactly how to do it, but you get a feel for it. Of course some days you have it, some days you don't and the days you don't have it, I'm going to stop myself out for the day on, you know, a loss limit that I'm going to put myself out for the day. But the days that I'm reading it well, I will keep trading and maximize how I'm seeing the market. But to keep from , you know, getting shaken out of a trade, I look at the best way to enter the market and for me I will enter a limit, I'll enter on a buy stop entry, buy stop in, sell stop in, and then sometimes I'll go straight markets. And there's not one particular way that I do it because the market is very dynamic. It's moving. I need to be moving with it. Some days those types of orders will work, some days it will run right through it if you have a limit sitting right there, it's going to come down to it and flush a little 10, 20 more cents, hey, you're stopped and then reverse and go right back up. For me, it's about getting that feel when it comes to these levels. You know, a couple of times -- that's why I always keep my positions and everything very light in the morning to get a feel. It's kind of like shooting hoops in the backyard. You want to get a feel before you go into the game. I'll even pop open the simulator that we have [0:17:28] [Indiscernible] get a feel of the market before I really start trading. It lets me know that when, you know, I enter the live market because if I'm going to jump on the simulator to get a feel really quick warming up, it's going to help me be a little bit more in tune with the market and anticipate things a little bit better and have a better feel for the market, which you have to have for me as a trader. I don't know about other traders, but for me as a trader, I have to have a feel for that market before I start jumping in. 

 

Tim: That's an interesting idea to trade on a simulator for a while to kind of get warmed up, make sure you're reading the market properly and then put in some live trades. I like that idea a lot. 

 

Michael: Well basically I used that analogy because I mean with any sport, you know, you warm up. I mean you warm up before. And for me to get a feel of the market, because it's an arena where everybody's participating, the best in London, Chicago, New York, Singapore, wherever. You're playing against the best so I like to warm up, get a feel of the markets and hell if I made money, I mean that happens and it's not real money, but right away I know I got a feel for the markets so I'm going to go back. You know, I'm going to hit the live market and kind of take what I've warmed up with and go with it. 

 

Tim: Talk about those levels a little bit. Where do you get them? Are they previous highs and lows or what do you use to find those? 

 

Michael: Yeah, exactly. I mean previous highs and lows overnight, highs and lows, your major ones that everybody sees on a daily chart. I take what we jokingly call like a Google earth approach where I pull back on the market and I'm looking at it. You know, each morning I have my trading cards right here and then I blank ones and then I look at it from, you know, weekly where is the 50, 100, 200-period moving average. Like I said, I keep things very simple. Where are the levels that we consistently have been support or resistance at the one week if I'm looking at a one-week chart then I go to daily charts then I go on hourly chart, 30 minutes and all the way down to like about a 15-minute. And on my trading card, I'll write all that down on each level. Those are my levels now. I then kind of start the ones that are a little bit -- you know, more ones that deserve a little bit more attention. And, you know, as the markets trade and it comes to these certain levels, then that's my playbook and now we're going to see how we play out on the field when I jump out there. 

 

Tim: Now we're all in this business to make money. 

 

Michael: Yes. 

 

Tim: Do you have kind of a daily goal that you like to see on that P&L or a weekly goal? What do you do there? 

 

Michael: You know, you want to think about that, but no, I don't. I stayed away from that just for the fact that I let the markets come to me. Today, nothing was happening in the market. I traded very light. I didn't like how I was trading. I think if I really had a profit objective today that I set or a profit goal today that I wanted to hit, it would be a little bit more difficult for me to do that. [0:20:23] Now during the week I kind of have a rough idea where I want to be. I know during the week, you know, there's two days of the week… As I trade, I consider like my weeks are -- I break things up in weeks, so I have a whole week to put a week together to so to speak. And I know usually I will always see the market pretty well at least two days a week. The other three days preserving capital and seeing if it's one of those days that I'm seeing it. So, you know, for me it's a strong discipline and listening to what the market is telling you and staying in tune with the market rather than setting, okay, I've got to make $1000 today and I've got to do it tomorrow. Because that hasn't worked for me. I have kind of an objective that I like to, you know, keep moving down the field so to speak so I do set kind of profit objectives, but I'm definitely not the type that I've got to hit this goal today or, you know, my world comes to end. No, I kind of threw that out window a while ago. 

 

Tim: All right. One of the ways I like to talk to people about how they trade and get a feel for that is asking them about a recent great trade and then even a bad trade. So maybe we could do both. Let's start with bad news first. Is there a trade that didn't go the way you wanted it to and kind of there's a good explanation of how you trade and how you get in and out of things that you could talk about? 

 

Michael: You know, the trades that go the worst for me when I jump in and it always starts off in the morning -- when I jump in and I don't the market state, I don't know how we're trading. I feel as though that the market is going to go higher, you know, it looks that way, it feels that way, but that's me as not being patient or letting the market develop or show me. It's an instant impulse of feeling and I'll trade. If I trade off impulse, those are going to be my bad -- basically days that they start with bad trades and they go into bad days if I lose the discipline. So as far as a bad trade, that's how all my bad trades kind of I would say develop. My bad days develop off impulsive trading. So there's not one in particular bad trade that just wiped me out or anything like that. I stay away, stay clear from that. Earlier on in my career, that was something I did. As before ten years ago and I'm just kind of getting a feel for everything, I would always think I knew where things were going and force things. And now I'm much more mature in how I trade. I'm more patient, much more disciplined. These are things that took me many years to kind of lose the ego, drop the pride and said, you know, the markets cannot be always right. There's my truth which is you know, the real truth and that's the market and I'm going to follow what the market says and what it's telling me so. 

 

Tim: It sounds like once in a while you still fall back into the old thing where you maybe force a trade when it wasn't quite there yet. 

 

Michael: Uh-hum. 

 

Tim: So it still happens even when you're a veteran trader, I guess? 

 

Michael: We're humans, you know, we're going to make mistakes. You've got, you know, your Tom Brady's out there that's throwing an interception last week and quite a few times. You know, you get the best that make mistakes and that's why the market is great because it's full of mistakes and full of people taking advantage of them. And each day, you know, you want to keep your head above water and stay in the game and keep learning from these mistakes. And I don't care how old you are and trading in the pit, I have guys, you know, kind of elbow me and say, hey, you know, go take a break. You know, you do the same thing to them and these guys trades -- you know, I was ten years in there, they're 15, 20+ years and you see them get frustrated and their emotion get the best of them. It happens. This is the nature of the -- it's what we basically signed up for as traders is this emotional craziness. I enjoy it, but at the same time, it does win on days that I let it win. 

 

Tim: Well, it's always more fun to talk about winning trades, is there one that you've had in the last week or two that maybe you could talk about that went well? 

 

Michael: You know what, I traded what was it, last Tuesday? No it was actually -- no it was Friday the unemployment number came out. That I did, you know, fairly well. That was the S&P move. You know, I caught the -- it sold off really hard and then it had a revision at the same time so, you know, all the news and everything, I know they watch these. When the unemployment number comes out and stuff like that, they watch that. But then also the revision came and it came out a lot worse. No, it was the revision actually a lot better I think. So it's one of those that it flipped down, sold off really hard, and then it came out, it did a pop off that and I caught the pop. So that was, you know, my good day. [0:25:00] But as far as my big days that have kind of set themselves apart, not lately. Not in the last I'd say a year or so. There hasn't been any days, huge days that have really set themselves apart as there was before 2008 there's some big, big days that have set themselves apart, but as far as now, I mean I'm just focusing. This market's very difficult now, I'm focusing on just being a consistent, profitable disciplined trader. The good days have come but as far as the huge winning days, those ones, you know, they're not there as much anymore. But the market will change and Silicon will come back and things will get better. 

 

Tim: One of the things that I find fascinating is that the longer somebody has been trading, the harder it is I think for them to tell me about a good and bad trade. Because it seems like they've just gotten good that once the trade is over they don't think about it anymore. Whether it was a winner or a loser, they're just waiting for the next trade. And so in some sense you guys don't even remember these trades because you've stopped thinking about them the moment you closed out. 

 

Michael: Well, Tim, you've got to look at this way. This is our job and we don't look at -- the good trades are what you think as ordinary necessary part of your career and it's something you expect. And the bad days are the ones that do hurt and struggle and even on good days, you don't really look at them as good days anymore. And that's kind of the tough part about this business and where the emotion really takes control because no matter if you're consistently making money, it's just you consistently make money if you go -- if I'm an accountant and I'm working at some CPA group. And I'm trader and I think it's what I should be doing and I've been doing this for ten years so I don't really get excited on big winning trades. And I manage my risk to keep myself from turning bad days into ugly and that's kind of -- the glamour goes out of it the longer you've been doing it, but it's a very rewarding business. But as far as you know really getting excited on big winning days or even average winning days, that's really not there that much anymore. You just know it's an ordinary necessary part of staying in the business and getting, you know, growing in the business. 

 

Tim: Now you've been really patient with my questions, I appreciate that. You started a website called TopstepTrader.com. Why did you start that and what's there? 

 

Michael: You know what, when I first started, I blew out a couple of accounts. So, you know, this is earlier on my career when I thought, hey you know what I think I know more in the market. The market clearly taught me multiple times so you're talking about $30,000 account, $30,000 account, $30,000 account back to back to back and every time, you know, I did that I didn't really learn until I got completely humbled and lost. I understand how much money this business takes from people if you aren't prepared, if you don't have the patience, and especially if you don't have the discipline. You know, I've seen guys in the trading pit fall down in strokes from taking big losses and everybody in the pits keeps trading while a guy is down there shaking. Because everybody has positions on and we all - this is our livelihood. There's a medical staff here too on call so they took care of that. But, you know, you understand how brutal this business is. So when I started Topstep Trader a year and a half ago, I basically wanted to give people the opportunity to instead of any firm out there and I don't care if it's a discount brokerage or if it's full service brokerage firm or however you're working with, they'll take your money and they will give a trading account. They'll open up a trading account with you and they'll let you trade. You know, that was probably the reason why I lost so much money is because I was allowed to do that. I mean I always think that traders should be prequalified as many people on sales does need to be prequalified to trade and it's not the case. We do all sign those waivers when we open an account that this money if we lose it all, it's okay. So, you know, I've started Topstep Trader so we could find talent there. We call them mining for talent. There's a lot of people who don't have that money. You know, I lost a lot of money and I was in college at the time too and I was trying to do college and trade at the same time. I've been very passionate about trading. It's something I wanted to do and I guess I was most scared of the fact that if I kept losing I would never be able to do that. So what we do with Topstep Trader is create kind of a scouting agency for traders where we develop, scout and discover trading talent. It's allowed us to put recruits in what we call a Combine. The NFL has a combine where individuals that get overlooked because they're in a small school or don't hit the media or hit the news or hit ESPN or something like that in college, never get looked at by the bears or any big organizations. So they have a combine where you come in there and you showcase your talent and the scouts are in the bleachers and they're going to take their notes. Well that's exactly what we've put together. I believe and after trading the floor as long as I have had that trading is a professional sport. The Topstep that's why we call it Topstep Trader, the top guy, the guys or girls that stay on top step are the biggest, best and they're your A-Rods and Jeters of the pit. [0:30:10] And for me, I mean it took me -- I started on the bottom step and it took me working up trading once in two lots, once in two lots and then the next thing you know trading a little bit bigger size, taking on more risk. Taking on more risk and the next thing you know you start trading a little bit bigger and there's a guy behind you like I'm going to move up the step. You know, you're not trading very big kind of deal and that kind of happens. So to me, I recognize there's a professional sports model in this. I've always been, you know, an athlete. I did college ball for a year and I put two and two together and I'm like, okay, this market takes a lot, there's a lot of people that absolutely love to trade just like people who love to play sports and all that kind of stuff. People that will put everything they've got into it and the market will take it all away or they never have a shot to go to trade in a live market. So we created the Topstep Trader so the guys sweeping floors at McDonald's in South Dakota or the guy coming out of an Ivy League school, we put everybody in the same exact level playing field and tell them don't tell us you can trade, show us you can trade. You all have the exact same size of accounts, you're all trading on a simulator, you're all trading real time, everybody can lose this exact same amount of money and we're going to see, you know, who can manage their risk and not go on tilt and turn it into a gambling thing. And we're looking to filter traders from gamblers and that's what the whole concept of Topstep Trader started. We've kind of been blessed enough to find some ridiculously good talent from this and we also feel good about the fact that we're saving people money from basically saying, you know, if you can't show a consistent profitable trading method in our Combine, you know, you can go trade on your own anywhere but I wouldn't do that. I mean you want to focus on you save yourself a lot of money, you're going to develop and you're going to grow as a trader and when you're there and you're running on all cylinders, we're going to back and that's what we've basically put together. 

 

Tim: All right. So if somebody does really well and becomes a star, you'll back them in terms of funding a real account and then take a portion of profit, is that how it works? 

 

Michael: Yes. Yeah, exactly. 

 

Tim: Okay. 

 

Michael: So yeah, we give them the exact same account that they traded in the Combine. There's a simulator. It's the closest thing we have to evaluating that player out on the field doing his 40-yard dash, doing his push-up vertical and all that kind of stuff and we can see how they trade in today's market, you know? It's great, you had a great year two years ago but the market is different now than it was, how do you trade today's market and we evaluate them and "sit on the bleachers" and see how they trade. And, you know, the cream rises to the top and we can see who can manage their risk the best and that's the individual we're going to take live and fund them. 

 

Tim: How often do you find individuals that do great on the simulator but when the real money hits it, they just can't seem to duplicate that? 

 

Michael: You know, it's just like anything. You know, you get a lot of people that come in the simulator, then you get a small percentage of that that we take live and then you get a small percentage of that that actually sustain staying live. And then ones that we take live that can't sustain staying live we don't send them back out on the streets. We put them back in the Combine and say show us, you know, that you're still consistent, still profitable and all that kind of stuff. So almost it's like the minor leagues, major leagues professional sports model. We're going to pull you up in the majors. So, you know, just trying to put that analogy together and when you get as many people in the minor leagues trying to be in the major leagues and you come up in the major leagues and some guys are going up, some guys are going down. But, you know, we're starting to find some traders that really know how to trade all different types of markets. We let you trade in any type of market. So, you know, for that -- you know, it is difficult and that's why we call it mining for traders. You know, we're looking for the ruby and the gem and hopefully every once in a while we find that diamond. 

 

Tim: All right. Well listeners you can check that website out at TopstepTrader.com. Michael, thanks very much for your time today. I really appreciate you sharing some of these ideas and thoughts in your parts of the markets. 

 

Michael: Well thank you for calling me.